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Ammit · Mar 24, 2025 11:06 PM

First thank you to our Discord members who have provided a ton of feedback already about making the leaderboard function to the best possible extent. These ideas are being presented here because they have already been extensively vetted by Discord members, and the broad consensus is that it is a good idea. Presenting it on the forum is the final step before starting to implement these changes in game.

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Problem #1The "points this year categories":
-The foundation category is unrunnable on older eras. There is no point in us having a board that can never run.
-The second gen category is either unrunnable or only accessible to a very small number of players who have been playing for ages and happen to have access to the genetics of those ancient foundations. (I don't think outlast to win is much more fair than pay to win.)
-Finally the lined category is all 13+ horses, most of them 14+ and even 15+. That is fine in isolation but going from second gens to cap+ quality is a HUGE jump.

Proposed Fix #1
I believe in June we should change the foundation, 2nd gen/lined boards to be broken up by PT instead of by generation. I am proposing the following categories

Silver Circuit - For horses of foundation to third gen levels of ability. (Roughly below 11.5 PT aka roughly A papers and below)

Gold Circuit -For horses of 4th to 6th gen levels of ability (Roughly 11.5 to 13.2 aka roughly *star and low **star)

Platinum Circuit- Everything at roughly cap quality at above.

I am using "roughly" a lot here because the actual divisions would be based the secret training number of the horse. I can't use PT for the divisions because PT can be artificially lowered via inconsistency. (and is therefor exploitable) The general vibe is though if you are breeding lower end ability those horse lands in Silver, mid range the horse is in Gold, and top end they are in Platinum.

-Effectively this means the second gen and first gen boards will end up combining into Silver Circuit. The lined category becomes Platinum Circuit, and Gold Circuit will be filled with horses that had no place on the LB before.
-This makes sure every category for every club has a chance to run. Both era clubs and the rare color clubs can suffer from a lack of foundation horses. This solves the issue for both.
-This change would provide a place on the boards for new bootstrap lines, new players, old genetics you love but are not cap quality, etc. A much larger range of breeding becomes accessible to all players.
-Statistically some players may win less GMTs in the reshuffle. However; because this activates a ton of categories that were not paying GMTs before, on a whole, it will cause a net increase in payouts across the game. Those players that may have lost some wins because of foundation and 2nd gen combining are statistically just as likely to win some points in the new middle weight category.

I am proposing this chance happen with the introduction of the new era on June 1st.

Feedback and questions on this change is very welcome.

Please note this is post 1 of 2. There is another post of proposed changes coming asap.

Other proposed changes would start in December.

RamshornRanch · Mar 25, 2025 9:07 AM

I have no opposition to these changes. I think opening up more categories to run in the older eras is a good thing. I am hoping it would keep interest in breeding stock for those eras active.

Walywoohoo · Mar 25, 2025 9:28 AM

I think my only "concern" is that it would make foundation horses not even competitive; is that correct?

Ammit · Mar 25, 2025 9:40 AM

I do not believe that is correct. There is a fair amount of wiggle room with the points earned category because of the randomness of showing. Exceptional show horses are as good as many 2nd gens as well.

Khisanth · Mar 25, 2025 10:45 AM

I’m not on Discord so big thanks to those who worked through the evolution discussion to get to this. Anything that creates more opportunities for more players is a win! =D>

Foxbrookfarm · Mar 25, 2025 1:55 PM

I have no issues with seeing how this plan will work out! I think it’s great to address the issue especially on the older eras. Thank you all.

MissKitty · Mar 25, 2025 7:40 PM

I really like these changes and think they would be a really positive change for the leaderboards!

Ammit · Mar 25, 2025 10:28 PM

The proposed changes are now showing open the LB page so people can get a feel for how things might shift around.

LadyhawkeStables · Mar 26, 2025 6:17 AM

This is neat! With each of the color clubs I looked it, I had roughly 1-2 additional horses show up in the new proposed breakouts.

RamshornRanch · Mar 26, 2025 7:46 AM

Looking at the eras 1-5, most of the horses I have visible on one of the new circuits are gold or platinum. Which makes sense since I'm breeding at cap level in those eras. I like that a newer player could come in, start with some lower paper level stock, and have show horses competitive at the silver or gold circuit level without having to compete against my platinum level lines in those eras. I think this will be a good change for newer players that are still building a program to have more of a chance at ribbons and GMTs on that silver circuit.

WensumValleyPonies · Mar 26, 2025 8:12 AM

Looking at my ponies awards for this year, I will do significantly worse under the new system.

I'm a newer (returning player, so I had way more money than an actual newbie) player, who started from scratch at E6 (so my lines are at max a year old) and has not purchased high pointed show stock from earlier eras, I am only just starting to breed horses that fall into the Gold category and won't place in it for several more months as they age up and get to levelling off.

I can see this possibly boosting the sales of higher pointed and levelled off stock to newer players. But will established stables sell off their non-top 5 show stock, as they would need to be willing to lose the daily pay-out these horses give them, so newer players can have a chance to earn GMTs. Would this then be price inhibitive to new players? Probably.

The only other way newer players can get at these boards relatively quickly will be to buy auction foals and wait months for them to become competitive, but will people actually sell their mid-high pointed show stock via auction anymore if they may possibly win them GMTs in the future?

This game can be a very slow burner and it can take months to get on a leaderboard with your own stock. And due to my points above, I kind of disagree with the outlast to win viewpoint, being competitive on the leaderboards will always be skewed to the longest standing players, who can afford to max and boost, and flush embryos a season earlier.

MissKitty · Mar 26, 2025 9:28 AM

@wensumvalleyponies - I’m in the same boat as you that I am ranking lower in a lot of the leaderboards with the proposed changes. I recently started playing again after about a 1.5 year break so I’m having to start over a bit with all my breeding and show stock.

Despite this, I recognize how these changes will be helpful to the health of the game in the long run. I think it may allow for more widespread payouts of prizes because 3rd generations until you reach cap kind of get lost in the leaderboards with the current setup. With the changes, those horses have a better shot of placing on the leaderboard.

WensumValleyPonies · Mar 26, 2025 9:49 AM

@MissKitty, thanks for the reply.

I do get where these proposed changes are coming from, I don't disagree with rewarding mid level or mid generation horses with more chance at LB awards. I think this could be a good thing.

I do question the "health of the game" aspect, because at the moment the problem of empty leaderboards seems to be for E0 and E1, and moving to E2 in June. I don't think having a maximum for four older Era LB's is a massive detriment to having a healthy game or competition.

If we are looking at the "health" of the game being how do we keep new players engaged and active members for long enough to be come invested and stick around for years to come. Which we as players and Ammit as a business owner should and would welcome, we need an incentive for these people to do so.
I don't think getting rid of the Foundation and Second Gen showing boards will actually help with this, yes it will benefit a broader spectrum of players who are already invested in the game, but newbies, maybe not so much.

I think we'll need to see the other proposed changes to the LB before we can understand the full implications of the changes Ammit has put forward so far. At the moment we're trying to draw conclusions and give feedback from an incomplete picture, but we were asked for feedback, so it has been freely given :)

Ammit · Mar 26, 2025 9:59 AM

The feedback is appreciated. :)

I will point out new members are not making foundations in licensed gene clubs or older eras. They are making them for the new eras where foundations do earn GMTs for a considerable amount of time. Foundations dominate for more than a year after the creation of an era, at which point any member who started with that era has had ample time to breed a fair number of horses.

I also look at all servers not just Mesa when making changes and while mesa may not have many era' that can't run do to lack of foundations other servers have a fair number of them.

There actually is a link Discord members have access to that will show you exactly what you earned compared to other payers. I just now updated it show you how many gmts you earned via the points categories. It may prove helpful info to some players.

https://mesa.horsegeneticsgame.com/gmtsbyplayer.php

Khisanth · Mar 26, 2025 10:48 AM

Thanks for sharing this link! Really great to see how we compare to others. Also - all those GMTs just sitting in peoples accounts. So much maxing and editing and making of chimeras could be going on! :D

Walywoohoo · Mar 26, 2025 1:08 PM

Oh wow, that was fascinating!

WensumValleyPonies · Mar 26, 2025 2:19 PM

.

WensumValleyPonies · Mar 26, 2025 2:24 PM

I'm a member of the Discord and that link doesn't show me my account in comparison to anything else. Just what looks like the totals that would be used for the calculations?

I'm signed into Discord, not sure if I need to do anything else to make this work?

EDIT: Actually I found two instances of the "you placed here" marker in the results page, but I have no idea what board this is referencing or what the placing was.

EDIT AGAIN: I've now worked it out! Out of the 72 players who won at least one GMT last season, I placed 50th with 5 GMTs (0.18 of the total pot), my best score I think ever. Compared to the top placer who won 355 GMTs and a 12.51% share of the pot.

Would be interesting to see how long ago that person joined or how many seasons / generations they have been a member of the game for.

Walywoohoo · Mar 26, 2025 2:26 PM

It took me a minute but I think the stats are for everyone who won tokens on this server, and "you placed here" are your specific stats.

Walywoohoo · Mar 26, 2025 2:27 PM

So 72 people won tokens last month?

RamshornRanch · Mar 26, 2025 3:12 PM

@WensumValleyPonies

If it helps your analysis at all. This was my placing. I'm a premium member, joined July 2022. I had a basic upgrade paid for with IVs for awhile before upgrading to premium. I can't remember how long I've been at premium. I just barely boosted my first ***star stallion in January or February of this year.

#9
86 gmts won using 3 boosted horses, 3.03 % won ← You placed here
86 GMTs won this season, worth 430.00 USD
3 GMTs in this account, worth 15.00 USD
71 gmts from futurities
Won 140 awards
2 producer top 3s
5 pt top 3s
0 Most Points top 3s for GMTs

DarkPhoenix · Mar 26, 2025 4:00 PM

@wensumvalleyponies

Here are some of my stats as well.

Joined Oct. 2022 but did not start playing until ~july 2023. Had a basic upgrade for a while and upgraded to premium February-ish, 2024. I think my first boosted stud was back in November-ish 2023, and first double-boosted was June/july 2024

I also forgot to enter foals last season.

#3
235 gmts won using 13 boosted horses, 8.28 % won ← You placed here
235 GMTs won this season, worth 1175.00 USD
776 GMTs in this account, worth 3880.00 USD
137 gmts from futurities
Won 303 awards
29 producer top 3s
0 pt top 3s
22 Most Points top 3s for 32 GMTs

WensumValleyPonies · Mar 27, 2025 5:07 AM

Thanks @DarkPhoenix and @RamshornSportHorses that information is really useful, thank you for sharing.

I'll post my stats for comparison purposes, joined in May 2022 for less than one era, but left for a long period until I re-joined in *I think* April 2024, when I came back I think I had almost 3million hbs in the bank. I have a basic upgrade and haven't maxed or boosted any of my stock.

#50
5 gmts won using 0 boosted horses, 0.18 % won ← You placed here
5 GMTs won this season, worth 25.00 USD
5 GMTs in this account, worth 25.00 USD
1 gmts from futurities
Won 10 awards
0 producer top 3s
0 pt top 3s
2 Most Points top 3s for 4 GMTs

All of my GMTs from the past three seasons have been from Futurity boards.

RKOHaven · Mar 27, 2025 7:23 AM

I love the idea, it makes since to do the changes. I look forward to the change. Thanks, Ammit

Walywoohoo · Mar 27, 2025 9:52 AM

When low on space I used to auction-dump most 3rd generation horses (in established eras) because I figured they wouldn't be competitive in the lined LB Now I'm considering doing the same with my low PT second gens .. excluding futurity foals. Will most 3rd gen horses compete in the first or second level, once the change hits?

Ammit · Mar 27, 2025 9:54 AM

That depends massively on how they are bred. Right now 2nd gens seem to hold the most spots on the lists.

Walywoohoo · Mar 27, 2025 10:18 AM

Hmm... This will take some watching and learning!
Ok for example: this guy is second gen, passed SBA with a PT score under 10, and is consistent. Am I wrong to auction him off due to space?

3544919

Ammit · Mar 28, 2025 12:11 AM

You should look at the silver circuit and see what kind of horses are winning in the clubs you are looking at. That will help you decide what stock might win you awards there.

TallyHo · Mar 28, 2025 12:17 AM

This was my stats from year 60, I’ve been less competitive this time round for a number of reasons however my boosted stock from a few months ago aged up so I got very good foals this time round without using much brain power.

I personally am absolutely okay with these changes, I don’t focus on showing at all so could be a bit of something else for me to focus on going forwards - I get most of the awards from my foals!

195 gmts won using 24 boosted horses, 8.53 % won ← You placed here
195 GMTs won this season, worth 975.00 USD
246 GMTs in this account, worth 1230.00 USD
Won 176 awards
15 Top Stallion 32 GMTs
24 Top Mares 54 GMTs
52 Top PT 109 GMTs
0 Most Points foundations, 0 GMTs
0 Most Points 2nd Gen, 0 GMTs
0 Most Points Lined, 0 GMTs

Khisanth · Mar 28, 2025 3:29 AM

It takes a bit of time but if you’re willing to do it, can glean you a few more GMTs you might not have gotten, I go through each club and see where my herd is placing. Those clubs where I don’t have anyone on the board I remove all. I then look at clubs that i don’t have any in the top 3 and remove those. I then go to the clubs I have less than 5 and register all, to see if there are any that were in other clubs. Once I have checked all the clubs I have horses on the boards, I go back through all the clubs and re register all until my entire herd is registered. You can also look at your top horses in your herd and make sure they are in the right clubs. I had one that was placing low in the black, so removed her and added her to a different club where she placed in the top 3.

Foxbrookfarm · Mar 28, 2025 2:17 PM

I am excited to see how the leaderboards will fall. I do think it will be more inclusive.

On a side note, I want to share my stats from year 60. I placed 7th; I was 23rd for year 59. Also all my GMT wins in 59 were from the futurity. For 60, I was more active in showing my horses. This makes a huge difference so remember how important those show herds are! My breeding barns are smaller so I don’t often get on the top producers winners, but some of my studs have done great in the futurity as well over the years (thanks to all the foal owners!)

For year 60, ranked 7/75
151 gmts won using 0 boosted horses, 5.34 % won ← You placed here
151 GMTs won this season, worth 755.00 USD
150 GMTs in this account, worth 750.00 USD
39 gmts from futurities
Won 182 awards
0 Top Stallion GMTs
0 Top Mares 0 GMTs
2 Top PT 3 GMTs
11 Most Points foundations, 21 GMTs
9 Most Points 2nd Gen, 19 GMTs
34 Most Points Lined, 69 GMTs

Pkboo · Mar 30, 2025 1:48 PM

@WensumValleyPonies I am in the same boat as you. I am doing worse on these new leaderboards as compared to the old ones.

@ammit I think that the new ones would be cool if they some how incorporated the breakdown of the current leaderboards. With the propsosed new boards I am doing worse then i am now are the current boards and i already took a slight hit from the previous 5 cap hit that was made last time since some of the boards that i am on now arent filling even though they would if the 5 horse cap wasnt in place. even though i dont get many gmts from the boards i rely on them to change genders and pick up a few genes in the gene mod lab and with the new boards as they are now i wont get any at all. so i am NOT in favor of the new boards as they are now.

Here are my stats
1 gmts won using 0 boosted horses, 0.04 % won ← You placed here
1 GMTs won this season, worth 5.00 USD
1 GMTs in this account, worth 5.00 USD
Won 7 awards
0 Top Stallion GMTs
0 Top Mares 0 GMTs
0 Top PT 0 GMTs
1 Most Points foundations, 1 GMTs
0 Most Points 2nd Gen, 0 GMTs
0 Most Points Lined, 0 GMTs

Ammit · Mar 30, 2025 9:37 PM

This change was designed to fix categories being unable to run so should address that concern for you.

Ammit · Mar 30, 2025 9:40 PM

This has been up for a week now, and I think I can make a call at this point. The overwhelming feedback across all servers has been to implement it. So you can expect this change to happen for June and the start of the new era.

I understand that it is not the best change for some players. Making anything more inclusive means those that benefited because something was exclusive will see less. I understand this change sucks for those players, but on a whole this change will allow many more categories to consistently run, remove the pay to win aspects of some boards, allow more members to participate, and allow much more variation in the types of breeding projects that can see wins on the boards.

I think over all this change is a net positive for the game. Thank you so much everyone that provided feedback both for and against. I appreciate your time and thoughts, and weighed what everyone had to say carefully.

Pkboo · Mar 31, 2025 9:32 AM

You say you understand it sucks for players like me yet you are still penalizing us by moving forward with this new board without trying to find ways to help us. So what are you going to do about that? are you going to be finding other ways to help out?

Ammit · Mar 31, 2025 9:53 AM

I am always happy to help out players when I can. What sort of help do you need? Is it just GMTs?

ETA: Looking at your barn you do a lot of Silver circuit level breeding. This change opens up all those boards to you. They actually have a shot at the boards now as the change was designed for breeding programs like that. Most of your show horses are just young though. They should do ok once they age up a bit more. Most horses winning in the circuits are over 10+ years old.

Pkboo · Mar 31, 2025 6:37 PM

one time GMTs are nice but wont solve the problem really. As I looked through all the boards and as they are now in several of the boards i am on i have 4-5 and sometimes more but that drops drastically to none of virtually nonexistent on all the boards with the new boards. All my horses show, including my breeding stock, not just my young horses and I have horses that are 10 & up (92 are over 10 with 43 turning 10 on april 1st). As I said in my previous post I would like to see some kind of balance or merging or something of both boards so those of us that will be dropping off the boards if they stay as you have them now have more of an equal footing with those that are taking them over,

RamshornRanch · Mar 31, 2025 7:54 PM

One thought is that these changes are not coming until June. If your barn is looking not as successful with the new changes are there some adjustments that you could make to your program between now and June to help you be more competitive when the change happens?

I think having a bigger show string would benefit you. You mentioned you have 92 showing horses over 10. For comparison I have almost 500 show horses 10 or older. In my experience there is some random luck involved in doing well at the showing points boards. More horses tends to mean more chances to hopefully get lucky and have a horse that has a really good month.

I have not been good at consistently getting horses to place well on showing boards, so take my advice with that in mind. I can admit I probably don’t have the same perspective as someone else who has horses consistently winning in the foundation or 2nd gen categories.

Pkboo · Apr 1, 2025 10:36 AM

currently my show string that is 10+ is up to 135 with those that just aged up. But as I said in my previous post i show all of my horses, including those that I use for breeding, and I have 608 in total. The boards I normally rank on are the highest PT boards, and the foundation boards occasionally the top stallion, top mare but rarely. But with these new changes those boards will be going away which means my chances of even making the boards go away as well.

Ammit · Apr 1, 2025 10:41 AM

You have greatly misunderstood what is going on. No wonder you are upset, that would be a terrible change. The top stallion, mare and PT boards will be completely untouched.

"I believe in June we should change the foundation, 2nd gen/lined boards to be broken up by PT instead of by generation"

Only the points categories are changing.

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