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I love the updates you and the team are continually working on!

I really wanted to compete and go for Era 7 leaderboard, but I wanted a fancy genetic line.

Within days of the new Era the top producing boards already had their winners. Having a plain genetic line makes it easy to breed a pair of horses max the foal and clone it nine times to have the first top quality foals. I'm a bigger barn but by the time I had desired genetics for my line I was already out of the running.

This also has me feeling that if I want to compete for best producer of a new Era, it is the only project I can focus on. I have a decent income but I'd need to put it all into the Era project and let all other projects go. I'm too invested in other projects to feel justified in dropping them.

I've settled to not go for the Era 7 leaderboard and hope that my line will produce good show horses, that may or may not end up on any Era 7 leaderboards.

I'm still excited to breed my Era 7s to cap quality and then boost them down to cross with my Bolster line. I'm just not going for trying to win any leaderboards.

Era 4 required my complete focus. This month is a weird one because the GE is in play and I’m waiting to see what I get. But otherwise im all over that leaderboard.

I think the most important part about cloning for LB wasn’t discussed here. Clones don’t have the same limits on PT scores that normal horses do. So if a first gen can go to 10.5, a clone can hit 10.6.

So I max a foal, and clone it, and it has the potential to be better than my maxed foal. In era 4 this was stupid expensive with our pretty horses but it would be cheap with basic bays.

It is my understanding the top of the LB PT leaderboard is often clones from maxed horses.

I’m not sure the relevance but it felt like something to mention.

I actually already addressed that above.

"I am not interested in banning maxing, cloning or boosting from any eras. The goal is not to make the most perfectly balanced leaderboard. I could give awards at random if I didn't want know-how and accumulated resources to have any impact. Even if I did those things, the barns with the biggest pastures and most time for testing would still just win. That’s different but I don’t think it’s necessarily any better."

I had interviews I had to get to.

I'm not sure what a "fix" would be. I don't know enough of the back end of the game.

If there were a way to put pasture foals (born after/ on the 5th) on the same level as the foals created/ bred on the second, maybe that would even it out? But that doesn't seem right. I don't know if I explained that very well. And of course this doesn't touch the maxing/cloning.

From what I know of the leaderboards whoever has the best breeding ability foals the soonest will take the best producer boards. If a player has a very basic Bay line and continues to max and clone on the second of each month that player will be unstoppable in dominating the producer boards. And if they have clones that are better pt they will take highest pt board as well.

It would be fun to see a seperate lb where we only use pasture foals, and no maxing/ cloning. I don't know if that could be a thing?

I also think the new Era is meant to help new/small accounts to have a fair/even chance to play around with lbs. However if a player with a bigger acount has the means to max and clone, I don't see where the small/new accounts have a fair chance at the Era lb.

I also just wanted to add that I think looking at Era 7's current state is not a great way to reflect on long term leaderboard strategy and what the outcome will look like. The first month of a new era is kind of a wide open rat race as to who gets their 10 perfect foals on the ground first. I don't think it necessarily reflects who will stay invested and still have skin in the game in future months.

There has to be some way to identify a horse as maxed in the hidden stats of a horse. Otherwise Ammit wouldn't be able to limit us to 4 per season in the limited Eras.

Speaking from both an era 7 contender and as a non-competitive player who gave up a project because of limitations...

I will be the first to admit that I have very little knowledge of how to play the era leader board seriously- most of what I have gleaned is simply by watching SummerMonarch and Ahbean play chess with each other in era 4 which essentially is to hit it hard and fast. In that, premium accounts and those who make cash purchases will have an advantage on getting foals on leaderboards because breeding opens earlier in the month versus those who do not (which absolutely incentivizes upgrading accounts which = good because it is what funds the bills and keeps the game alive). I will try my level best to stay in this competition but RamshornSportHorses hit it perfectly on the head- it's long-term marathon and the 1st few months shouldn't be used to gauge how the board will proceed. Heck I could disappear tomorrow for months (again), and boom new contenders.

I also feel like we are missing the forest for all the trees. It takes a lot of cash (hbs) to fund a line for leader board competition- older bigger barns will (almost) always have the edge on that, and I don't really see how to fairly navigate that because again you can hit everyone with limitations and IV costs etc, but I can easily afford to purchase 200IVs every single day whereas a younger player may need to save for 14 days before they can purchase 20IVs.

While not barring ANYONE from the competition, there needs to be a shift in how to encourage smaller barns to participate in leader boards while not "punishing" the older more established barns. Maybe parallel leader boards (Era 8A and Era 8B)? To qualify for A, You make up to this much daily income, you go in this batch of competitors and if you make more than that, you are allocated to group B. That then could open up more possibilities and different limitations for each group designed to level the play field- group A can use this as a way to learn and play around with how maxing, boosting, cloning, etc etc works as a newcomer to the group and the more established players of group A can start getting more aggressive with their playing because they have increased their cash flow and are preparing to move into group B.
This could be done with max limitations and what we already have implemented so far.

Group B can be a bit of a free-for-all. If you have the funds to create a beautifully colored line and max it to your heart's content, so be it, you are not crowding out newer and younger players, you are gonna have to prioritize because you are competing against other players with same goals and relatively equal cashflow. Certainly there could be some limitations but honestly with new eras starting every 6 months, I don't see a problem with letting that group B go wild and see what happens- cash flow and barn space will determine how many leaderboards a player can cover I feel like. Maybe the limitation is that your foundation horses has to have at least 2 added genes (GMT tokens) to it worth 5IVs each (to raise cost of cloning etc) and you will not get GMT tokens for each foal in the top 10 PT score, only sires/dams who are top producers and top point earners will be eligible for GMT tokens. You can still max/clone/boost yadda yadda to your heart's content it just will only matter when they themselves become producers.

I see this as positive for younger players because it encourages them to breed for better quality horses which in turn promotes increased cash flow (because more show ponies!) and eventually they can earn enough to qualify for the bigger pool of older more established players in a new era if they desired to start a new line in that era. They don't necessarily HAVE to move to a new group once their income hits the cap because theoretically their lines will have hit max breeding quality cap by that point and after that, it just boils down to boosting which has always been 200IVs. If they want to start a new line in a new era after their income has passed the income cap, they need to be moved into the new group. Now that I typed that out, I actually propose 3 groups- a small (up to 100k daily income, intermediate (up to 500k), and large (over 500k) but these are just numbers I pulled out of my butt and can be individualized to each server). Same concept as before but with less and less limitations (but these limitations get more expensive) as you move up in each group.

This also solves the problem I have encountered as someone who was going to start a new line but had to give it up because of max limitations. I was gonna have a 2nd line aside from my era 7s that was going to be purely outcrosses and with the goal of producing a fully maxed out breeding cap quality by gen 7 with 100% no inbreeding in their pedigree. I bred over 64 horses to produce 32 foals- 27 of these foals were going to be maxed but because they were era 6s, I hit the 4 foal max BAM. I would have had to sacrifice 2 max slots for each generation of my era 7 foals and slowly chip away at the pool of 27 foals every month and within 2 years I'd have very few if none of these 2Gs left to make my 3rd generations by the time I had everyone maxed. I wasn't even aiming to compete on the leaderboard with these fellas. That was very upsetting I am not gonna lie. If I was in group C (with very few limitations, making over 500k), it doesn't matter if I am maxing 32 foals because chances are, I am up against other players who have the funds/capacity to max 32 foals of their own and it would be very evident within the 2nd month of a new era that I am not competing because I wouldn't be producing more foals, just waiting for my batch of foals to age up.

Another thought I had about this was to opt out of eras entirely- by that I mean I have the option to produce a foundation horse with "era infinity". These horses are not eligible for any leaderboards (color or era) by willful design and are not subject to any limitations because they are not contenders for anything. I then could max/clone/boost to my heart's content because again these don't impact anyone else's leaderboards and all foals produced by era infinity horses, themselves, become era infinity horses. It doesn't punish me for having funds to spare on having an era 7 line and another line I want to develop for fun but it does limit me from all of a sudden springing a fully maxed out cloned double boosted breeding cap line on an unsuspecting color leaderboard.

Looking over this I see I use the word I a lot but know I mean that to represent players in general, just not me specifically.

ANyway this was a lot. I'm going to stop here because first of all is this even remotely feasible? Am I overlooking something very obvious that would nix this idea? Does this help anyone with a new and even better idea?

Reading all of these has given me much to think about that I had never really considered before since it’s not part of how I play. I don’t clone, so I did not realize that cloning was able to have such a huge impact on the leaderboards. That is disappointing because it definitely removes some of the competitiveness of trying to produce multiple contender offspring. I’ve also never boosted a horse yet. I’ve used the occasional “max ability” because that feels the least like “cheating fate” I guess. I’m not changing anything except making the foal the best its parents could produce. I do think limits on boosting and cloning may be more helpful than the limits on maxing, but anything on a large enough level is for sure going to have an effect so it is tricky.

I don’t consider myself a large barn, but I have managed to stay fairly relevant on the leader boards and futurities. I’m not sure if that’s just because I’ve been here since the server opened though.

I definitely like being able to use the GMTs I win to max the few horses I do. I still have to choose carefully where to invest my GMTs. I couldn’t do the same with just IVs.

Era 5 was the first era i activity competed in and I had no idea what I was doing. I realized the clone a basic trick right away, but that limits the fun of fancy genes unless you want to pay. So I have 2 lines. While the basic black has done well, it is 100% in bred and while I know inbreeding has no effect in game as it would in real life, it still sits with me funny. :D i don’t know if there have been past discussions, or if it’s just not feasible to work into the behind the scenes numbers, so forgive me, but what about adding in the inbreeding factor? Depending on the % of inbreeding, it takes off a % of the score. Or maybe it’s not that big of a factor and I’m only one of few that have genetic freaks. :)) I mean, it is a game about genetics.

Maybe same with cloning? If a clone has the same scores as a non clone, are they equal or would you consider the non clone superior because it was achieved naturally?

I also try to get my main leaderboard contenders bred on the 2nd because of breaking ties. Which shouldn’t matter, but alas it does.

Another thought. What if there was an Era leaderboard lock - if you want your horse to participate on the newer Era leaderboards, you put the Era lock and it can’t be maxed or cloned. It’s truly based on natural ability. Then t doesn’t limit other horses in the same era you want to max for other lbs.

I don’t have any answers either. =))

@Khisanth I love the idea of adding an inbred percentage, I don't clone and I had on idea that the cloned foals were better, I just bred the best to best and hoped for the best. I do not make the lb often but the horses of my herd that made the lb were not boosted or cloned. So in that my wins are more meaningful to me since I don't do boosting much or cloning. I have been playing this for years and I am still trying to figure it out, so anything that would make it so my barn can be more competitive would be great, I do try not in inbreed my horses just like in rl inbred any thing is not good, but linebreeding is done in rl so that is what I try to do. I also do not understand the game well to make any suggestions to help, but if most of the lb horses are boosted or cloned maybe adding the inbred percentage if it is possible that is would help in a fairer lb ranking.

It was pointed out on forest (and I think is very valid) that we already have an entire second leaderboard that is very available to small barns. The futurities. There is a lot of luck involved there and you don't need any kind of notable funds or strategy to participate. Just breed some foals (you need those show foals anyways as a small barn) and you are in the running.

FlipsVonH we already have a second less competitive LB that works great for new members. The futurity. I won't be making a 3rd leaderboard. I explained why it was unfeasible above. :)

You don't need a fancy stud to win GMTs in the futurity. You just need to breed foals. You also don't need fancy studs to have to win there. Just not a lot of smaller barns knowing about it and getting involved yet. I have been seeing lots of luck on other servers for mid to smaller accounts.

I appreciate you doing the research though. It's helpful. We can do way more to promote them to newer accounts.

I'm going to second / third the opinion that a 0% inbreeding board would be brilliant, especially for new players or smaller stables that will never be able to compete with the boosted / maxed / bootstrap horses in straight Era LBs.

I think this will encourage newer players to look outside of their own barns for studs, but with fewer restrictions than aiming for Era Futurities, but may also help out newer players with fewer long term member connections to market their studs. This could also help the market for second generation + breeding stock sales?

I've had a quick flick through some of the Era 6 Top stallions and all but one of the top 10 are inbred, and many by the same maxed / boosted grandsire, and I've got a feeling this will probably end up being the case a few seasons into E7. Now this is a fine way to win lots of GMTs for more established players but unobtainable to newbies.

I think what I'm trying to say here is that if you are a new player, can't afford to boost / max and don't want an inbred line there's not a lot you can aim for other than current Era futurities IF you join just before the start of a new Era.

Maybe a 0% inbreeding line would be an achievable goal for newer / poorer players and offer a different way to play the game that is rewarded.

A 0% inbreeding board is not something we have the ability to take on right now. As is, the only way to calculate the inbreeding percentage is to open the extended pedigree page and I don't think the percentage as it is certainly listed is going to stay working the same. It's not how real-life inbreeding coefficients are calculated but I have not figured out a way to do that procedurally yet.

ETA: I am not opposed to the idea and I think it could be fun to have as a special category board. I can see how it would be quickly dominated by boosted horses though which people may not enjoy. I just can't work on that now as it does not address the issue I am working on now.

I am adding it to our idea list to see if we can figure something out in the future.

My goal is really just to make it so the older established barns don't get a free win button. I completely agree with you that lbs are for the best of the best and bigger.

There are no boosted horses winning in the limited eras. I am only talking about those not every club in the game. Free maxing is a win button in the limited eras.

Can you claim maxing has not been critical to your participation in era 4? And could you have maxed so much if you had not been winning lots of GMTs?

That's because no one has suggested going to an IV-only system. :)

That was the old idea that we decided not to implement.

I just want to start this off by saying I really appreciate how you are always doing the best you can to improve this game. It makes it so much more enjoyable seeing all the new developments and hard work put into it.
My only real project I have going on right now is my era 5 project. I started it right when the era started. I want to mention that i didn’t start off right away maxing horses. It took me a month or two to realize that my quality of horses was lacking and thats when I started. I also had to get way more strict on what horses I kept in the breeding program.

Since starting the project I have adapted a system where every new generation gets a maxed stallion and mare, to set a good baseline for comparison testing. The stud and mare that I max I try to make sure are also from maxed parents and are as good quality as possible.
Then every foal goes through SBA testing, comparison testing, etc.
I only keep foals that pass SBA, are consistent, and test AGA in comparison testing to a maxed horse in their same generation.The horses that don’t meet all these requirements either get gelded/spayed, sold, or I hold onto them to max later. I say all this because I really really try to have the best quality horses I can.

That being said, I bred around 300 foals for my era 5 project this month and got only 18 keepers out of the 6 generations I currently have. 4 of those were maxed (all gen 6). For example I only had 1 keeper in gen 4 and 5. I do think that the maxing limit is hindering my ability to move forward with my lines.

I would consider myself a medium size barn, I bring in around 174,000hb per day. I am not a high GMT earner by any means, at least not compared to other players.
Ironically though, I don’t win GMTs from my era 5 line. Which is disappointing because it is where I put all my time and energy. All the GMTs I earn are normally from my bootstrap herd, which I put very minimal effort into.
I just would love to see my GMT winnings come from the era I put so much work into. The best era 5 award I have gotten was #7 in year 48.

Even though I wish that I could max more horses I do think it helps level the playing field. If a barn can afford to max every horse they have, then of course they will come out on top in the leaderboards.

So honestly, I am not sure if I am for or against the maxing limit. It might be too early to tell. I am curious to see how it affects era 7 and if it levels the playing field more since it was implemented from the beginning. I think it will end up being beneficial for new eras. It is just hard to see it that way when it starts affecting eras that previously had no limits. I think that before we change anything, we should see how it levels the playing field for era 7.

Can you claim maxing has not been critical to your participation in era 4? And could you have maxed so much if you had not been winning lots of GMTs?

I had to max everything in era 4 to keep up with the game owner who has different resources than I do. I spent a lot of real money on era 4 so I don’t think it’s the best example. This change would have saved me a lot of money (or cost you lots of money) as I wouldn’t have been matching you in maxed horses. My futurity dominance of the era is because I outsourced keeping up with you to others because I couldn’t afford to do it by myself.

Also, I don’t win a lot of GMTs from era 4, as I don’t often win the top of the era. Look at it right now, for example. Last month the high PT foals were bred on the 1st and this month there is a boosted stud.

My big GMT haul this last month was based on non maxed show horses. Much of my color lb winnings are from futurity horses where there is no point in maxing them because they are at cap. So, yeah, Id say I’d still be dominant on the leaderboards if maxing didn’t exist.

i have looked on the wiki and here is and there is really nothing in them about leader board, boosting ,maxing, these all are very foreign terms. i am a very Smal barn under 4k horses i earn very few gmts at the end of the year.