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In this Discussion
- AlmostAllDun October 2023
- Ammit November 2023
- Appydays66 November 2023
- BlueRiverRanch October 2023
- DarkPhoenix October 2023
- efalater October 2023
- Foxbrookfarm October 2023
- LadyhawkeStables October 2023
- LookingGood October 2023
- magesvalley October 2023
- maziepaw October 2023
- RamshornRanch November 2023
- RideOutStar October 2023
- RKOHaven October 2023
- SummerMonarch October 2023
- Tarma October 2023
- TheBlueMoors October 2023
- Walywoohoo October 2023
- WillowRidgeFarm October 2023
Contemplating a change to normal breeding advice - Now proposed SBA change -Implimented
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I am looking for feedback on this idea.
A common trend is members not understanding what breeding advice is for. They want it to be either an absolute judge of quality or tell them how good the foal is for that cross. How it actually works is to compare the foal against the sire, and then separately compare the foal to its dam, and if it is a good deal worse than either it fails the foal. This means that some crosses will never produce a foal that passes as one parent always drags the quality down too far.
I think how people really expect it to work is for it to tell you if this foal is a good foal for that particular cross.
Example using completely made-up numbers:
Sire has an ability of 125, dam has an ability of 95. The average ability of both parents is 100. Foals are an average of the parents plus or minus a weighted random factor. Let's say foals can be born with an ability of 92 to 117 from these parents and that the average foal is born with an ability of 109.
Right now it is impossible for this cross to ever produce a foal that passes breeding advice because even the best possible foal at 117 (a foal massively better than the dam) does not compare well to the sire.
How I think people intuitively expect breeding advice to work is for any foal that is better than average for this cross to pass. (The exact passing percentage could be dialed in) In this case, any foal that was say 110 breeding ability or better would pass breeding advice. It would make breeding advice more intuitive and more newbie friendly, plus allow bootstrap breeders access to basic testing and not have to see that untested message constantly. (I would leave strict breeding advice alone. )
I am interested to hear what you think the pros and cons of such a switch would be.
Need to contact me? Read this first.
I sometimes get busy and miss things. If your private message, question, etc. gets missed please ping me so I can follow up with you. I am also always happy to explain or clarify. (HAJ does not have a customer service email, please send me a forum message! )
she/her -
I like this idea a lot, it seems like more logical approach!
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I like that this would help bootstrap breeders to be able to weed out better vs. subpar foals before going to papering and comparison testing.
I also think it would make bootstrap breeding more user friendly for new players. I don't know that newer players necessarily understand why they should not be testing their foundation mare x **Star stallion crosses if they are hoping to breed those babies later.
It seems to me also that when breeding two horses of very similar ability, the tweaked breeding advice would still work very similar to the current version of breeding advice. Since the better than average foals that would pass would still be similar to or better than their parents. If I'm understanding that correctly, I don't see a downside to the change since folks who plan their matches to try to get BA passed foals will still get BA passed foals.
Personally, this would very much change how I play and plan my breeding pairs. I have a strong dislike for not fully testing everything in my barn, and I absolutely detest the "untested" message appearing on my breeding stock. Because of that, I have stayed away from bootstrapping, despite the advantages.
I know I have big mare lag in some of my era based herds, so being able to bootstrap and still test those babies would be helpful in trying to get those mare bands caught up to the stallions I have in the same era.Ramshorn Ranch
Formerly Ramshorn Sport Horses
ID# 12824 -
Cons of revision:
I am currently dealing with major mare lag on both my breeding accounts (Bluegrass and Forest).
I feel like the revision would make it even harder to pull yourself out of mare lag since offspring worse than the sire would come through intact. Especially if I only had a basic subscription and didn't have access to SBA.HJ1: Chateau Albere-239543
HJ2: Felding Fields-48504
HJ3: magesvalley-63 -
Yes please! This was my biggest issue with my programs when I first started out and I think simplifying it this way would be amazing :)
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magesvalley - mare lag is not something that happens because of testing. It happens because of players culling stallions much harder than culling mares. If you hold your mares to the same standards as your studs it will fix the issue. You may need to start all the way at your second gens and give them a good hard looking over.
I feel like mare lag will be less of an issue though as the biggest problem with mare lag is that it makes it so you can't get intact foals.
RamshornSportHorses - "It seems to me also that when breeding two horses of very similar ability, the tweaked breeding advice would still work very similar to the current version of breeding advice" Correct it should work the same as before with even breeding.
Need to contact me? Read this first.
I sometimes get busy and miss things. If your private message, question, etc. gets missed please ping me so I can follow up with you. I am also always happy to explain or clarify. (HAJ does not have a customer service email, please send me a forum message! )
she/her -
I really like this idea! It seems much more logical and I also hate the untested message. Ram makes some really good points and I think it would help with testing for bootstrapping. :DDarkPhoenix #15470 (she/her) ~ Premium Upgrade
Barns always open! -
Something that folks may find useful information. Under the proposed system if you have a double boost over cap quality stallion and breed it to a cap-quality mare, cap-quality foals (and only cap-quality foals) would pass breeding advice.
The same double-boosted stallion bred to a perfect foundation mare would have star/gold foals pass breeding advice and only star/gold foals.Need to contact me? Read this first.
I sometimes get busy and miss things. If your private message, question, etc. gets missed please ping me so I can follow up with you. I am also always happy to explain or clarify. (HAJ does not have a customer service email, please send me a forum message! )
she/herThanked by 1TheBlueMoors -
So in short, SBA will continue to only approve/pass horses who are at least as good as the best parent, but basic Breeding Advice will compare to the average that the parents will be able to produce together?
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SBA will not change.
Basic breeding advice would tell you if that foal is a good foal for those parents. (if the change is added)Need to contact me? Read this first.
I sometimes get busy and miss things. If your private message, question, etc. gets missed please ping me so I can follow up with you. I am also always happy to explain or clarify. (HAJ does not have a customer service email, please send me a forum message! )
she/her -
Oh I love this- one of my biggest struggles with having a bootstrap stud that is either just at the cap or just below it is figuring out how his fillies are comparing to their previous generations and whether I am actually pulling the quality of the bootstrap mares up. Having fillies that are passing the initial BA then doing further testing to cull out would be a boon to helping increase bootstrapping quality for sure.TheBlueMoors ID 78
~Home of~~
The Dr Seuss Project
Kings and Queens of Rome -
I like that this makes BA a different tool than SBA. I never use BA now (since I have SBA) but I see the at cap advantage of this proposed system. It took me way too long to learn that ***+***= gelded or spayed because of cap.
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Because hypotheticals are fine but data is KING I did the actual testing.
Here is the result of creating 600 foals and testing them with the current breeding advice
Perfect Foundation X Perfect Foundation: 58 intact foals, 4% of passing are foals worse than both parents
Cap Quality X Cap Quality: 21 intact foals, 4% of passing are foals worse than both parents
Exceptional Producer X Perfect Foundation: 35 intact foals, all passing foals are better than the dam
5% Boosted Ex-Pro X Perfect Foundation: 25 intact foals, all passing foals are better than Expros
10% Boost Cap X Cap Quality: 0 intact foals
Average Star X Perfect Foundation: 0 intact foals
And I did the same 600 breedings again but this time with my proposed BA changes.
Perfect Foundation X Perfect Foundation: 31 intact foals, all passing foals are better than parents
Cap Quality X Cap Quality: 27 intact foals, 4% of passing are foals worse than both parents
Exceptional Producer X Perfect Foundation: 27 intact foals, 2% of passing foals are worse than the sire
5% Boosted Ex-Pro X Perfect Foundation: 31 intact foals, All foals passing foals are as good as Expro or better
10% Boost Cap X Cap Quality: 24 intact foals, All passing foals are cap
Average Star X Perfect Foundation: 26 intact foals, all passing foals are A/Blue or better
The number of intact foals received is much more predictable. You have fewer passing foals at the lower levels but the same rate of passing at cap level. You actually end up with strict breeding levels of pass rate on the Perfect Foundation X Perfect Foundation breedings, which I think is beneficial. I could tweak the formula a bit but I feel like these passing rates feel right and what people want breeding advice to give them.Need to contact me? Read this first.
I sometimes get busy and miss things. If your private message, question, etc. gets missed please ping me so I can follow up with you. I am also always happy to explain or clarify. (HAJ does not have a customer service email, please send me a forum message! )
she/her -
Wow, I feel like those numbers definitely make sense
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I don’t math at all but that is impressive and my vote remains firmly in the YES camp for tweaked BA!TheBlueMoors ID 78
~Home of~~
The Dr Seuss Project
Kings and Queens of Rome -
With that example spread out, I vote yes for the revised system.
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In my mind this right here is a good enough reason why the change should be made:
10% Boost Cap X Cap Quality: 0 intact foals vs. 10% Boost Cap X Cap Quality: 24 intact foals, All passing foals are cap
Once you reach cap quality there's nowhere to keep the line going unless you don't test your foals.
Ramshorn Ranch
Formerly Ramshorn Sport Horses
ID# 12824 -
I really like this change!
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This will be so helpful for my bootstrap line. There's really no way for me to properly determine whether or not to keep mares in there or replace them at this point.
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I like getting cap quality foals that pass.
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Yes please! This would stop me from keeping a mare because I "think" she may benefit my line vs her actually benefiting in the show ring. I started heavy with bootstrapping when I first joined because it seemed the easiest way to level up to good quality stock over the generation but with only sba available and some I definitely didn't want to snip because of personal preference or favorite stud/straw, mare/egg (especially archive) that I'd love to have a way to know if it would be worth keeping intact for breeding.RideOutPro on forest/ RideOutStar mesa
Player number:. 404
Breeding for fantasy horses -
I like this idea :)
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Another proposed change.
What if strict breeding advice always passed cap quality foals? That would be the only change to how SBA worked. If you are good enough to be the best the game can produce naturally you get to pass. That way if you are breeding cap-quality horses you can keep a line going using SBA that is only cap quality and not need to fuss around with boosting to make sure of that?Need to contact me? Read this first.
I sometimes get busy and miss things. If your private message, question, etc. gets missed please ping me so I can follow up with you. I am also always happy to explain or clarify. (HAJ does not have a customer service email, please send me a forum message! )
she/her -
I endorse the change to normal breeding advice.
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@efalater And what about the proposed one for sba?Need to contact me? Read this first.
I sometimes get busy and miss things. If your private message, question, etc. gets missed please ping me so I can follow up with you. I am also always happy to explain or clarify. (HAJ does not have a customer service email, please send me a forum message! )
she/her -
I absolutely like the proposed SBA change as well
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Throwing another yes into the change for SBA tweak. Would allow for better allocation of boost tokens for those that are genuinely good foals but just a hair below the cap and need some extra help versus having to pick and choose.TheBlueMoors ID 78
~Home of~~
The Dr Seuss Project
Kings and Queens of Rome -
I'm in favor of the SBA change.
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I can't wait till you de the change I actually have some thing that makes sense to me. This will help me alot and I would love to see the change SBA capxcap always passing the foals. But for foundation BC stock with the SBA will it still let the foundation mare and stud pass? Foundation being HH horses.
Blue Grass id#: 182429
Forest id#: 289
Mesa id#: 351 -
I like the proposed SBA change too! These will be so helpful!
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Huge yes for the SBA update too!
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This has been pushed live to the game. Have fun testing!Need to contact me? Read this first.
I sometimes get busy and miss things. If your private message, question, etc. gets missed please ping me so I can follow up with you. I am also always happy to explain or clarify. (HAJ does not have a customer service email, please send me a forum message! )
she/her -
I think I might go through and replan my breedings for next season now. Thanks!Ramshorn Ranch
Formerly Ramshorn Sport Horses
ID# 12824 -
Oh, I'm excited!
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oh i’m so excited for this!
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Same, I can't to see if pretty foals stay intact,Blue Grass id#: 182429
Forest id#: 289
Mesa id#: 351 -
Sorry for late reply, I don't use SBA so no comment!
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How would this impact those of us who don’t bootstrap?
This is a really cool change! Thank you for taking the time to work it out :) -
You have already seen how it impacts your herd as it has been in place this entire breeding season. :)Need to contact me? Read this first.
I sometimes get busy and miss things. If your private message, question, etc. gets missed please ping me so I can follow up with you. I am also always happy to explain or clarify. (HAJ does not have a customer service email, please send me a forum message! )
she/her -
P.S. I loved having it this breeding season! My in-house stallions got way more use because I could pair them with lower paper level mares, but still BA test their foals. Just wonderful!
Thanks for your continuous effort to improve our playing experience!Ramshorn Ranch
Formerly Ramshorn Sport Horses
ID# 12824Thanked by 1Ammit -
Thank you, Ammit :) I’m excited to see how it goes! Time to BA some foals.