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Normally when this happens it is because of holding the stallions to higher standards than the mares. Notice how the sire is *star *gold but the dam is only *star blue. Sire also has 4 more ancestors than the dam. The dam is probably half a generation or more behind in quality. You need to be tougher on your mares. (or softer on the studs)

I comparison test everything. I just got rid of everything that isn’t better than the best of the previous gen, which I get doesn’t help this year. I’ve hit the point where I’ve only got a mare or two per season because I’m being harsh on picking who stays.

The SBA did say that the sire could produce better. There was no mention of mares.

I try to not uneven bred but I guess that try isn’t always a do, and I should look at that.

I guess I really underestimate mare lag!

"The SBA did say that the sire could produce better. There was no mention of mares."

That means for sure your mares are solidly behind your stud.

To get the best out of comparison testing you want a benchmark for each generation and to test against that. Testing against the prior generation isn't a particularly harsh metric.

" I bred this fifth gen mare who tested as good as my best 4th gen AND as good as my best 5th gen."

Once you get into ** that can be normal but that is a bad sign for sure at that generation.

Ah this makes sense now because I have been wondering about this for the past season and this almost every foal didn't pass SBA and it was usually.
This Stallion could produce better foals even to my top mare so with that in mind when getting that and looking for better quality mares what exactly should I look for? I'm not a high daily Income account I'm at 5k a day at the moment (working on my show pony) so between breeding and testing I don't have much left over but have started to cull my mares off.
Prime example of how I figured it out,
I started a play around line with the HH pumpkin spice, stud ended up lower quality than mares so I stopped using him and out sorced a stud, ended up with a blue filly from red/yellow pair so I knew she would be sup to all that line so that of course made sense, and was a obvious reason.
But this season most of my studs that were locked so I haven't sba some, are getting the notice of they can produce better quality vs the mares I have at that level.... so second question is if the mare is lower quality but same paper does that mean I need to start even breeding and make sure the parents match paper wise on the grandparents?
Because I've been trying to be strict on that with all my Embryo pairs this season and I've only gotten 2 outta all them that passed SBA

Okay so this thread had me totally looking over my breeding projects.
I found a gen 2 mare that tested superior to almost every other gen 2 mare (aga to some). I comparison tested all my gen 3 mares to her. Only 2 were superior… does that mean I only keep those 2?
Im scared for my lines now lol

@LaurierArabians Same! I've been having no luck the past 2 seasons I suspected it was my mares were to far behind my studs and this post definitely conformed some of my thoughts about alot of my girls, so I'll probably be spending my Sunday bonuses comp Testing my stock. The bright side though is even if they don't hold to par they are all pointed so will make better showers

RideOut — I sent some goodwill over to let you start testing now. :)

Also if you know the mare lag is bad you can always use a stud from a prior generation to get things back in sync.

Also, Summer thanks for posting your troubles! This post has been great to help me put my critical thinking cap on.

I mean Ammit has been saying it for forever, if you don't want mare lag the mares have to be held to the same standards as the stallions. If you're only keeping stallions who are AGA your benchmark then that means getting an equal quality benchmark for the mares and only keeping AGA for the mares too. This discussion I think finally lit the lightbulb for me as to the best way to go about that.

Also with the pt system of sorting high med low.
Above it's stated @RamshornSportHorses uses the example :
If one red mare has lots of blue/A foals with PTs that are 10.6+ she’s most likely a higher red than a red mare with mostly red/B or yellow/C foals with PTs in the low 10s. Using comparison testing I can usually separate my groups into a “high” “mid” and “low” group.
So that is clear for my red/B papers what do I need to look for in the following papers.
Blue/A:
Yellow/c:
Gold/star:
*/*:
**/**:
***/***:
Because I would like a base to start at please
And second
High-low example for those groups please.
High Blue/A:
Low Blue/A:
H yellow/c:
L yellow/c:
H gold/star:
Low gold /star:
H */*:
L*/*:
High **/**:
Low **/**:
H ***/***:
L***/***:
.......
I know some others would benefit from this labeled out for understanding the process for there own self as most are visual learners vs in head comprehensive ability.

@Ammit
So I basically just need the best stud/mare I'm assuming sup in that gen? To the stud/mare and top in that gen.
To use to comp test against for quality of the horses in that gen/line?

Basically use the Superior of that gen or line to comparison test the others against to get AGA or Sup quality for that generation or line?

Also.
With Embryos....
Does the pt or quality/paper of the implant mare matter in out come of the foal?

RideOutStar,

The High vs low within a paper level only matters if you are keeping a range of ability levels in your breeding stock.
So for example, if Ammit has a super high ability red papered mare and they only keep mares who test AGA that mare then they have all high ability mares and don't really need to do any additional to sort out the highs vs. the lows. The high reds can be matched to the high Bs they have, super easy peasy.
Vs. Ramshorn, who is keeping all of her red papered mares as long as they pass SBA. I would most likely have a mix of low and high ability red papered mares. I may have better luck getting SBA passed foals if I try to sort the mares into high and low groups and match them a little more closely to a similar ability stud.

I guess take this high vs low advice with a grain of salt, if Ammit doesn't think it's particular helpful, maybe it isn't. I just personally have noticed that if I have a stud I know is on the higher end of a paper level I have a harder time getting a lot of SBA passed foals from him when he's matched randomly to my mares. My suspicion has been that because a bunch of the mares are probably on the lower end, there's enough mismatch there that it's tougher to get a foal that surpasses the sire in ability.

If you're going to go the route of comparison testing and only keeping the best of each generation you'll need a known "best" foal to compare everything to. Some folks use their best in pasture foal, you can start systematically comparison testing your group and by keeping track of the results determine the best foal you have, you can use a foal which has been maxed. There's more than one way to go about that.

With embryos the implant mare does not matter at all. Foals stats are based on its genetic parents that the egg and straw came from.

Regarding your ATMN and Phantom Sparkle line that is mixed gen. It depends on what you want to do with the line. If you're really just wanting to breed pretty horses that fit a certain look, none of this discussion really matters. Not every project or line has to follow this formula for success. "Success" can be whatever goal you want to make for the project.
You also don't necessarily have to scrap an entire project just because you learn new things that change the direction you want to take things. You can just start with what you have and then be more strict on future generations to adjust things in the direction you want to go.

I may be wrong assuming this, but I hope this conversation isn't giving anyone the impression that there is a "right" way and "wrong" way to go about how you do things. There is not a one size fits all way to play that suits every goal and game strategy.

(I asked a silly question and figured out why it was silly so I took it down.)