HGG Community Forums

TheBlueMoors · Feb 22, 2023 10:57 AM

This will be a series so if you are interested in this, please bookmark it as it should be getting updated monthly. Questions and comments are welcomed, either here or via PM.

This post will focus purely on the process of establishing true breeding color with the 2ndary goal of establishing breeding quality as well. This post assumes you have a basic understanding of the three color bases: bay, black, and red and how extension and agouti work hand in hand to create these 3 coat colors. If you would like to review, I created this post a while ago and the member created wiki has good articles as well.

This will be a living breathing article that is a continual work in progress as I am actively breeding this line! I am documenting this journey here so others who are interested in establishing a true breeding herd can see how the process can work and help them understand what they might want to search for when selecting sires and dams.

There are many many many ways to go around establishing a true breeding genotype (that is, genetic blueprint that will get passed on every single time to every foal) and there are no right or wrong answers. This line will add and lock in as many genes as possible while improving on the parents’ breeding abilities. I have increased the challenge by attempting to source outcrosses containing genes I would like to add in while accounting for papers and breeding quality.

I will be starting with Sampioen as one of the foundation sire and using straws/foals from other outside lines including AE4 Additions Hornet that match my ultimate breeding goals: red based horses with 2 copies of mushroom, sooty+, DP, flaxen, pangere + and satin. A white spotting gene will be determined and added in with outside infusions as well as whatever gene strikes the fancy. W20 will be avoided with extreme prejudice as it is a white booster and in conjunction with other white spotting genes can completely white out the horse.

With that said, there are some clarifications required:

NOT ALL GENOTYPES WILL BREED TRUE IF CROSSED TO OTHER TRUE BREEDING GENOTYPES. An excellent example of this is a bay based horse (EEAA). Extension (E) and agouti (A) are dominant and just one copy of each will create a bay based horse if put to a black or red based horse regardless.

If you are attempting to build a true breeding red based line, only using red based horses to cross to each other will guarantee red based foals. When you breed to an EE AA/EEAa (bay) or EE aa (black) horse, you will always produce a bay or black based foal. You CAN breed to EeAA/EeAa (bay with one copy of dominant extension and 1 copy recessive extension) horses or Eeaa (black) horses with a 50% chance of red coming from this cross but that is a risk and again, defeats the point of locking in as rapidly as possible. Punnett squares will be your best friend and there is an excellent post describing how to utilize them in planning your breedings which can be found here.

Mare and stud lag is real! I will be carefully selecting and only using breeding horses that pass SBA and meet my personal breeding criteria: superior to their sire/dam and should have improvement in paper levels according to their generation as well as comparing to select benchmarks per generation.

Sampioen
This is Sampioen aka Sam. His genotype is basic with none of the fancy genes outside of 1 extra copy of DP and 2 copies of mushroom that I added to him in the GMT lab. I removed w20 and LP. He is a perfect foundation based (as compared to a perfect foundation herd helper) and has all of the genes I need to make guaranteed red based horses with at least one copy of DP, flaxen, mushroom, and sooty (if put to red based mares). His resulting foals will be discussed in the next post concerning the 2nd generation and beyond.

I have also chosen to source outside and in house lines here- that is, I will breed foals that are a product of multiple lines from different players being combined. This is so I can a) introduce new desirable genes and b) create a diverse family tree that incorporates the best of the best that Mesa has to offer.

Now for the 2nd piece of the puzzle: the mares.

Red based horses (ee ??) is recessive to both black and bay. For the purpose of this post, I exclusively looked for red based horses. Essentially my goal is to make as many genes homozygous as possible as quickly as possible so on the next generation, I can focus on breeding in the genes I missed out on. Red horses with sooty (ee AA sty sty, ee aa stysty, and ee Aa stysty) were the main bulk of the mares I brought.

Every single mare is also foundation yellow papered horses (so either had to come from the Foundation rescue, come from Perfect Foundation bases, or have perfect stats). Mares with copies of DP were also selected. These are samples of the mares for the first batch that will be either put to Sam or the straws I have accrued.

TMS 1788442
e/e A/A Sty/Sty f/f P/p PATN1/- RB/RB

TMS 901645
e/e A/A Prl/Prl Sty/Sty f/f -/DP p/p

TMS 1420298
e/e A/A Sty/Sty -/f DP/- P/p

As you can see, the colors and size of the mares are varied with the exception that their base genotype is red based with 2 copies of sooty. I have not decided what height/bone weight this herd will be so have selected a variety to play with to see what I like best. As I hone in on what I like more, I will start selecting for the size as well but that is a future breeding goal.

I will be updating this with results of the 2nd generation foals that will be produced by the end of this month and talking about why certain horses will be kept versus others as I make my selections for the next batch of 2nd generations that will eventually breed in 3/4 months to produce the 3rd generation. Thank you for your interest!

RamshornRanch · Feb 22, 2023 12:17 PM

Excellent idea to document for those who would love to learn.

This tickled a college genetics class memory for me. In a real life scenario, where you do not always have the luxury of gene testing every animal, it is much easier to establish a true breeding herd if you are selecting for a recessive trait instead of a dominant one. Because you would know the genotype without any additional testing. For example, we know a chestnut horse will always be ee, but a black horse might be EE or Ee with no way to know without a gene test. I'm amazed I remembered that, since it's probably been close to a decade and I can't even remember the professor's name.

I imagine you should have good success pretty quickly if you are selective about the genotype of your mares and the foals you keep intact. I bet the pedigrees will look really pretty with lots of uniformity in their ancestors.

SummerMonarch · Feb 22, 2023 6:37 PM

What is the difference between perfect foundation base and perfect foundation herd helper?

TheBlueMoors · Feb 22, 2023 7:27 PM

@RamshornSportHorses, wonderful point! It is funny how some certain things just stick in your mind even after years and years have passed! Thank you for the insight! I am excited to get this project launched and begin documenting. I already have some pretty cool foals on the ground and am looking forward to getting them infused with the kiddos from Sam's batch :)

@SummerMonarch, I could have worded that better! I meant horses who necessarily dont come from guaranteed perfect foundation herd helpers (i.e. a rank 1 herd helper for dark red duns may produce horses that fail SBA and/or have PT scores lower than 9.90 but could also produce horses that for all intents and purposes are perfect foundations versus a rank 5 perfect leopard appaloosa which automatically produces a perfect foundation with appaloosa traits every time). Hope that clarifies!

Ammit · Feb 22, 2023 9:55 PM

@RamshornSportHorses you just stated the reason why red Fresians are a thing. :)

Walywoohoo · Feb 23, 2023 6:07 AM

Thank you for this post!! I am about to buy my 2 copies of mushroom, and need to make a few decisions: 1. Do I make a stud hom mushroom, or a stud and mare each het? The first option guarantees that each foal gets a copy, and the second could result in homozygous foals (and I'm already breeding liver chestnuts in era 3 and 4 so the foals that get no mushroom could go in those herds).
Which leads to decision 2. Experf foundation, or current era? I plan to keep my mushrooms in one era. Should I go with 3 or 4? I welcome ANY thoughts or input, as I only just joined in September and am just starting to figure out leaderboards and such :D

Walywoohoo · Feb 23, 2023 6:16 AM

Some factors: I got a DP herd helper stallion who passed SBA, and has 2 copies of DP! That, and the fact that you are starting this era 4 herd, make me lean toward era 4. Also, I'm not a very rich player, so the less I need to do with GMTs and such the better haha
Ok, that's it :D

RamshornRanch · Feb 23, 2023 8:09 AM

@Walywoohoo if it were me, I would probably go with a stud that is hom mushroom, and then look for second gen studs with mushroom to cross out with the next generation.

Just my personal opinion.

TheBlueMoors · Feb 23, 2023 6:48 PM

@Walywoohoo
Great questions! There is no right or wrong way and people have done both ways! It's really up to individual taste/factors.

I personally do not actively do leaderboards (I'm on a few of them color boards just because I have older lines dating back to the start of Mesa) so I can't comment on eras although @SummerMonarch and @Abhean would be great resources as they are currently dominating the era 4 boards and have a good understanding of what it would take to compete.

Genetic wise- I am with RamshornSportHorses. I generally always make my studs homozygous for whatever genes I desire my foals to have because it is a bit of a numbers game as well. If you have a stud with 2 copies of mushroom and cover 50 mares, you will have 50 foals that have at least 1 copy of mushroom. Run them through SBA and comparison testing and a significant number of that can wash out some of these foals. The foals that go onto become the next generation of breeders then have the opportunity to produce 3rd generation foals that are homozygous for their desired genes.

You could use a stud that is heterzygous for mushroom and mare that is heterozygous for mushroom and get a 2nd generation foal that is homozygous for mushroom yes. However if you use Punnet squares, there is a 25% chance that the foal has 2 copies of mushroom, a 50% chance of 1 copy of mushroom and 25% chance of not inheriting mushroom. If you had the GMTs to burn, in theory you could always add back mushroom to the foal that miss 1 or both copies of mushroom but then you also have to factor in the fact that the foal may not even pass SBA unless maxed out or boosted which are both expensive. Furthermore, a stud with only 1 copy of mushroom has a 50% chance PER foal of passing on that mushroom gene. He could conceivably sire 50 foals with 1 copy of mushroom or he could sire 50 foals with absolutely no copies of mushroom. IF he does sire foals with 1 copy of mushroom, these could be the ones who all flunk Strict Breeding Advice (SBA) ironically.

This is also where personal preference comes into play. Some people aggressively outcross using other players' lines and use multiple sires. Some people just breed brother to sister or sire to daughter and so on. This game does not factor inbreeding into the foal's "health" but some people prefer to make their foals' pedigrees as diverse as possible. THe catch is sometimes it can be difficult to find suitable sires that carry enough of the desirable genes you want your line to carry to justify any shortcomings they might have or there just may not be anything available or at the appropriate generation/breeding quality for what you need at that time.

Take my Dr Suess line for example. I do not use any outside lines at all and use brother-to-sister breedings to quickly lock in my genes and control my breeding quality- this 7th generation stud, if you look at his pedigree, I use one sire (sometimes 2 depending on my generation numbers) per generation. Now I am adjusting this line slightly with some new genes so not all my genes are locked in just yet but most of the new genes are getting locked in around the 4-6th generation now. It is hard for me to find horses to outcross to that carry all my desired genes because I also breed with a very heavy emphasis on bone weight so there are not many lined cobs/drafts that have 4+ bone, have my geneset, and breeding quality.

@GryphonHollow has some great examples of heavily diversified pedigrees in her horses. This colt is a nice example of how you can outcross and incorporate other player's genetics into your herds and build from there as well!

The point I am getting at is that it really really really is personal preference. There is no right or wrong way to build your breeding herds. If you are looking to rapidly build your breeding numbers with as many of your desired genes as possible, I would definitely recommend focusing your efforts on making your stud homozygous for as many genes as you can afford through the GMT lab and some luck (by using the right herd helpers). His future foals are then guaranteed 1 copy of these desired genes and depending on which sires you use (either/or a combo of line breeding, carefully selected straws, or live cover breedings to other studs), you have the potential to produce 3rd generation foals that are homozygous for most of your desired genes.

Hope this is helpful!

I will be creating a new post soon with the updated results of the new 2G foals! Very exciting things happening!

SummerMonarch · Feb 23, 2023 9:36 PM

Hi, Waly. So I read through all of this and I have an unorthodox suggestion. I know you want to get on the leaderboards. My advice would be to go all in on era 2.

Era 3 and 4 are a bit feisty. Era 2 is on a slower pace. (Those are my second gens dominating the era, not some super high generation.) This has a lot to do with the number of horses in each era. Era 2 is about 6,900. Era 3 is about 8,400. Era 4 is about 3,240 two months in. In addition, there are no new era 2 foundations (unless someone boosts an era 3.)

There is an era 2 9 year old stallion in auction with no foals who should be B papered. I’d stick two copies of mushroom on him and breed in era 2. You could use any era of current creates you wanted for his mares, since he’s always going to be a lower era. https://mesa.huntandjump.com/horse.php?horseid=1279849

outside of eras, make sure to register your horses into the size clubs. Cobs and sport ponies have the lowest pts of the sizes. Color wise, the lowest pts are in grey and tobino. Brindle is always on the low side but that’s cause less brindles are made each year.

ps - just cause it is what I would do doesn’t mean it is a good idea. :)

SummerMonarch · Feb 23, 2023 9:41 PM

You already declined the boost, but this horse is exactly my advice for how I’d try to get the leaderboards.

$ Shadow of mars

AbidingPeace · Feb 23, 2023 10:14 PM

I completely agree. You are probably too late to chase era 3 as they are well ahead. Era 4 would also be a big struggle to catch as that is being heavily contested and you would be starting 3 months and a generation late. You would need some 1000+ era 4 horses to even stand a chance there. Era 2 seems like a good bet as you can come in behind and compete for the 2nd gene leaderboards, and if you buy up era 2 foundations of the auctions and lists you can probably get a good showing on the foundation point LB as well.

As a newbie though LB hunting may be a bit out of reach, but breeding second gens for early ears might be a way to sneak some gmts. Era 4 might still be the most fun for you though as it is easy to get mares, there are lots of studs standing, and it is very active. Era 3 would restrict you to buying only already created horses or exceptional producers which could get pricey.

SummerMonarch · Feb 23, 2023 11:09 PM

And remember era 5 opens on June 1st. :)

AbidingPeace · Feb 23, 2023 11:27 PM

Ya maybe play around with era 4 and build up your income and learn the ropes some then go hard on era 5. :)

Walywoohoo · Feb 24, 2023 7:24 PM

Awesome points, thank you all!

Walywoohoo · Feb 26, 2023 9:03 AM

I bought the buckskin that Summer recommended, but then stumbled upon this appaloosa, who needs less gmt work to be perfect for mushroom. Since we are supposed to be talking about true breeding, rather than "tell Candy which horses to breed" lol. So on that note, I'll add the hom mushroom and a copy of sty to the first strand, and make sure the inheritance is 100%.
https://mesa.huntandjump.com/adv_search.php?runsearch=go&jump=0&erae=2&mare=0&gelding=0&spayedmare=0&bty=0&lined=0&owner=15073&56=0&57=0&58=0&59=0&60=0&61=0

Araunya · Feb 26, 2023 8:10 PM

I was going to try a true breeding line using actual herd helpers, but decided to hold off on it until I have more space. If I do pick it up, I know how to really go about doing it now ;)

@Walywoohoo as someone who has a hetero foundation stud and mare, having a homo foundation is always better. My Cuddly Bears project is breeding Brown Duns with Splash M (SWM) and Kit M and already has hit a snag - my mare is het for Kit M & the stud is het for SWM. This has automatically made me seriously consider doing egg flushes on the mare as my stud already has a decent chance of passing his 1 copy of SWM on. This will now mean my lines will take longer to get all desired genes than how Bluemesa is doing hers.
Edit: So because of this issue, the foal I got from that pairing of het foundies, resulted in this guy: https://mesa.huntandjump.com/horse.php?horseid=1888774
who is AGA to his dad, but I had to add in momma's Kit M. So to get my lines really going with both markings, I now have to use a foal as good as his dad and not one that tested superior if he was hetero for both SWM & Kit M.

Punnett squares are truely your best friend when doing projects like these. Not to toot my own horn here, but thank you for linking my wiki page about it! I tried my best to make it as clear as possible so anyone starting a project can follow along! ^_^

TheBlueMoors · Mar 1, 2023 8:22 AM

Alright! It is March and there is a new breeding season upcoming!

I did some breedings (both in the pasture and with straws) in the last weeks of February and produced a few second generation colts and fillies that impressed me!

First, let's talk about the pasture breedings. Sampioen was put to 30 mares in the pasture (full disclosure: not all mares had full pasture bonus accrued yet) and produced 10 colts and 20 fillies.

5 colts passed SBA
10 fillies passed SBA

Breeding papers were then examined. I require my 2nd generation fillies and colts to paper better than their C papered sire/yellow papered dam. 1 colt and 2 fillies were removed from the prospective breeding herd as a result.

All foals were red based with at least 1 copy of DP and 2 copies of sooty so no eliminations based on color was made off the bat.

I then compared the last 3 intact colts against their sire and all were superior to sire. This is the list. Due to having other unrelated excellent colts from breeding straws, I will be gelding the inconsistent warmblood colt and the warmblood colt with only one copy of flaxen. Remember, I want to lock in as many genes as possible- all three colts are red based with 2 copies of sooty and 1 copy of DP but only the 3rd colt has 2 copies of flaxen. All are approximately equal in their breeding ability based on comparison testing to their sire and to each other so I will be picky on consistency and color at this point. I also will note that all three colts tested worse than my benchmark colt but I have chosen to retain one colt and see if I am able to produce anything better this season. If not, this colt will be getting maxed out before he turns 3.

This filly was the Best of Pasture foal and thus is now my 2nd generation benchmark for the fillies. She compared as good as a 2nd generation filly by another sire via straw breeding that has been maxed.

2G 1946042 TMS SUP BOP

I compared the 10 fillies against their dams. 5 of them tested only as good as their dam (AGA) so were removed from the breeding herd as again, I am only keeping foals that are superior to their sire/dam. **More on this thought process in a follow up post**

I then compared to my benchmark filly and only this girl tested AGA as the benchmark. The other 3 were culled due to testing worse than the benchmark. As she is the only "survivor" of the culling, I have chosen to disregard her inconsistency as it has no effect on breeding quality and she is otherwise an excellent candidate for the breeding herds. She has 2 copies of sooty and 2 copies of DP so all of her foals will be guaranteed liver chestnuts (if put to a red based stud) and has a 50% chance of passing on her mushroom.

I used straws from several sires to produce some outcrosses that will eventually bring in and establish new fancy genes in this project and got some really spectacular foals.

Bright Future g1 owned by @MissKitty #15593
*LH1 Islamorada e2 owned by @LadyhawkeStables #557
AE4 Additions Hornet owned by @Abhean #16969

These sires were chosen based on their genetics and papers- they all possess attributes I would like to incorporate such as satin, DPF1/DPF2, mushroom, sooty+, and pangere. I am also experimenting with the white spotting each stud and seeing what I am liking on this combination. I will eventually start selecting for that but not at this point.

These are some of their offspring:

2G Kinoko TMS SUP

2G 1937355 TMS

1945570
Now this fella is technically breaking my rules as he tested worse than his sire and will certainly not pass SBA. I plan on repeating this breeding again and seeing if I can get a colt/filly that is superior as his sire has a LOT of the attributes I want to incorporate into my herd and I want to weave in as many bloodlines as I can. His genetics will promote that diversity as well so I am waiting to see. If unable to get a foal that passes, I will be maxing this colt out and potentially doing a gender change as well.

This is the complete list of all my current 2nd generation prospects: click here please

I have also obtained straws and embryos from some other studs that will be produced this season in addition to the pasture breedings. They will be discussed in the next 1-2 posts!

SummerMonarch · Mar 1, 2023 8:34 AM

Since you are breeding for color and genes, and know you are going to max, why wouldn’t you pick your fav by color, check to make sure the parents are both high quality, and max that one? The parents likely all have a similar range, so no matter where the foal is the first time, it now goes to the max ability the parents could produce.

I’ve been chewing on this for awhile. (Era 4 is intense!) Other than potentially wasting GMTs, I haven’t worked out the cons.

TheBlueMoors · Mar 1, 2023 11:46 AM

That is a great question SummerMonarch!

Short answer: personal preference.

This is a game designed for long term playing. Chances are I will be able to eventually breed a foal that meets my requirements, especially at the lower generations. It may take a few tries but I can almost always breed something that will have all the things I need for that particular generation. I’d rather much save my GMTs for maxing out foals that may come from straw breedings because 1. I want to protect/maximize my investment because straw breeding is expensive 2. Ensure I will have enough foals to promote genetic diversity.

Maxing the wrong set of foals can also lead to mare/stud lag which makes it incredibly frustrating when otherwise well matched breeders are not able to produce SBA passing foals.

Another reason why I’d save the GMTs for upper generations is as the line reaches the breeding cap, it is going to progressively get harder and harder to breed foals that are superior. Those might be the ones where I justify maxing a foal, especially if I need a replacement for that generation.

It is also expensive to max out multiple foals at 5 GMTs a pop (which translates to 10 IVs per GMT and it is 12500hbs per IV). I would much rather save the GMTs and do little tweaks on a breeder that is of better breeding quality (I.e. needs a copy of DP added back- 1 gmt) than a horse that has all the genes needed but needs to be maxed to be a superior breeding animal (5gmts).

I could have 5 suitable horses to breed that need 1 gmt each to make them perfect or 1 horse need 5 GMTs to be perfect. It’s a bit of a numbers game as well. The more horses you have the more likely you will have something that will pass your criteria for the next generation.

TheBlueMoors · Mar 2, 2023 6:47 AM

In the prior update post, I talked a little bit about retaining only superior colts/fillies as compared to their sire/dam then following up with comparison testing.

Again, I must emphasize the importance of knowing this is only how I personally play. There is no right or wrong answer! This is simply my thought process for my own herds and others may have other schools of thoughts (and are absolutely welcome to share them here!)

When breeding quality is one of your top goals sometimes quality matters over quantity. It is important to select for the foals that will continue to push forward that goal, no matter how pretty a foal may be.

Breeding ability lies on a spectrum. You have your superior animals who are obviously better in terms of breeding quality than your parents. On the other end of the spectrum are your animals that test worse than your parents. These are not what you would desire to breed if you are looking to improve your generation's breeding quality (but could be useful for backward breeders!) You also have as good as their sire/dam (AGA) quality animals which is in the middle.

AGA animals are a little ambiguous- it doesn't necessarily mean they are exactly as good as their parent. It could mean they are a little better (higher breeding quality) but not enough to be considered superior OR it could mean they are just a little worse (less breeding quality) than their parents but not enough to be considered worse (and fail breeding/strict breeding advice). Benchmark horses for specific generations can come in handy here to discern where an AGA colt/filly might rank in terms of quality when compared to their superior brethren.

I personally do not keep AGA foals intact in my herds at this point, especially in the earlier generations. It can be heartbreaking to have an otherwise PERFECT foal test only as good as their parent but I am also looking at this in the big picture of things. If I am aiming to improve the breeding quality of every generation over their sire/dams, why should I keep foals that are essentially the "same" generation in terms of breeding quality as their parent, especially when I have other foals that are superior both to their parent and the AGA foal? Chances are I will be able to repeat the breeding next season and end up with a foal that is superior. You could max out a foal that is AGA as their parent and I have done this multiple times, especially if it is a straw breeding from a really desirable stud but at the end of the day it is your budget, your GMTs, your prerogative :)

Keeping AGA foals with superior foals can result in mare and/or stud lag where a particular sire or dam is far enough ahead in breeding quality compared to their mating partner that it can be very difficult to produce a foal that passes SBA (and this is one of the principles of bootstrapping to produce show ponies). Remember SBA tests the foal against both their parents. The aim of the game is to enjoy your pretty babies and have fun experimenting with different genes as well as developing a tight-knit community. It can be frustrating to deal with mare/stud lag and discouraging when excessively high numbers of foals don't pass BA/SBA because their parents are too far apart in breeding quality. That's why the testing tools are there and comparison testing is pushed. You can't 100% control which/how many babies will pass SBA but you can at least hedge the odds in your favor by using the tools available.

There are caveats to this, especially as your line advances and you approach the breeding quality cap. At that point, it may become extremely difficult to produce animals that are superior just because they can't go any further without boosts or maxing out or a combination of both. That again becomes a personal decision as to what to do.

As always, comments, thoughts, and questions are always welcomed! It is my hope that this series can become a collection of other breeders' thoughts and observations and serve as a reference for beginners and experienced alike looking to navigate the learning curve of horse genetics and breeding!

Araunya · Mar 2, 2023 3:51 PM

First, I wanna say I'm loving this post! And realized I should've started my one project this way.

Talking about said project, I don't know what to do about it. I did 10 embryos from my main stallion & mare pair. Stallion has SWM & mare has Kit M. Both hetero for each.

Embryos were a huge flop. Half passed BA, leaving me with 5 intact - 2 fillies, and 3 colts, all passing SBA. One filly has dad's SWM & the other has mom's Kit M. Both are liver red duns. Kit M filly is sup to mom.

Out of the 3 colts, only 1 has Kit M, none got dad's SWM. The one with Kit M is only AGA to dad. One was sup to dad.

What would you do in this instance on how to continue the line? My goal is to have White Spotted Brown Dun Splash with Pangare.

I should also note that none of the 5 intact foals went up a paper level - all are B/Red still. I want to keep at least 1 of them so as not to feel like this was a total waste of money, but I feel like that's what it is.

* Sorry to take over your post for my own troubles!

Bluemesa · Mar 4, 2023 7:30 PM

Wow, this is such a cool series!

@Araunya, if it were me personally, I’d hold on the the fillies (maybe take em to the gmt lab to get a copy of E if you have the gmts to spare) because they are still useful as breeding stock, even if they only have a couple of the right genes at this time.

I’d pull embryos again next season to try for a more ideal colt match- seeing as colts reach a breeding age sooner than fillies, I don’t mind holding on to mares a season or two before I have a stallion ready for them. Plus, it doesn’t hurt to give a crossing a second chance.

If, however, after a second season of pulling embryos doesn’t yield better results on its own, I might try maxing out a breeding pair of 2nd gens that matches my goals the closest and moving on from there.

(My main project happens to be a True Breeding line of Bays/Browns with DP, GP, and Satin ;) )

TheBlueMoors · Mar 4, 2023 7:40 PM

@Bluemesa, thank you so much for your response! It is so nice to see how other players go through their breeding process.

@Araunya, no I am so glad you posted here! This is the exact type of post I am hoping to incorporate into this series so breeders just starting out can use this as a reference to help jumpstart their lines and troubleshoot! I’m about to go to bed now but I will be typing up a more in depth response in the am. A 50% pass rate is actually pretty darn good for embryos. I’ve personally had dismal luck with them in the past. You are in good shape!

TheBlueMoors · Mar 10, 2023 11:14 AM

@Araunya, jeepers so much for typing a response in the AM (6 days ago)! I did a quick summary to make sure I am understanding this correctly.

Talking about said project, I don't know what to do about it. I did 10 embryos from my main stallion & mare pair. Stallion has SWM & mare has Kit M. Both hetero for each. White Spotted Brown Dun Splash with Pangare is ultimate goal

2 fillies, and 3 colts-all passing SBA but stayed at paper level as sire/dam
One filly has SWM- liver red dun
One filly has Kit M- liver red dun- superior to mom

one colt has Kit M- AGA sire
one colt (no white spotting) SUP

Oof this is a tough one and what is one of the shortfalls of embryos. They are very expensive and as you've seen, can often result in a lot of disappointment. Sometimes lady luck smiles and you get some really nice foals and other times it's just "welp that was a bummer". It looks like this is the former scenario.

This circles back to your personal preference/decision for your breeding program. Some people don't care for papers as long as foal passes SBA, others would wash out anything that is AGA or worse than parents regardless of cost and some do a little of both. If you are one that requires foals to be better than their parents in terms of papers and breeding quality, this might be the part where you bite your tongue, cut your losses, and start again with fresh embryos and a little breath holding. Another prospect is to maybe select your fillies, max them out (or maybe even a 1% boost if that is what it would take to bump them up that last bit into the blue paper range hypothetically), and focus your embryo/breeding efforts on producing a superior colt. Like BlueMesa mentioned, colts mature to breeding age more quickly and the colt could theoretically be tweaked as needed.

It does come with a price- GMTs and boosts are expensive. If you are just beginning a project, is it worthwhile to start dropping expensive modifications on "earlier generation" horses when you probably have a very good chance of breeding something even better the next season at a much lower cost? IF you produce a colt/filly that is superior and is an improvement on their sire/dam's papers but missed just 1 gene needed to make that foal otherwise genetically perfect, that MIGHT be just cause to sink the GMT into the foal, especially if you are low on number of horses that passed SBA for that generation. Again, it's personal preference and there is no right or wrong decision!

I would also take a good look at your mares- you mentioned that the fillies are red based but have a goal of true breeding brown based horses which are EE AA StySty DPDP. If you are using quite a few red based mares or mares with heterozygous dominant extension and/or heterozygous dominant agouti, there is another layer of complexity to the mix because you are having to account for the potential of producing not just bay based horses but also black and red based horses. If your main stud is Ee A?, I would definitely encourage looking for bay based mares with as many of the genes needed to improve your odds of true breeding bay/brown based foals (I.E. mare with EE AA StySty minimium with DP, dun, pangare being good bonuses but not dealbreakers).

As mentioned above, BlueMesa has some awesome advice as well, especially if you are looking to not have a total washout of all the embryos and and is a good compromise if you are torn between culling based on breeding quality versus suitability to the breeding herds!

Araunya · Mar 12, 2023 5:23 PM

Thank you guys for the input! As that was my first time using embryos, I was realistically hopeful about the batch - I was expecting to have to do another embryo batch, and this confirmed it. I think I will just bite the bullet on this and try again in the next few months.

I also bred the stud to another 8 mares. All but 1 had DP, 2 were EE AA, and the rest were a mix of eE AA/Aa. Out of that crop, I did have 2 colts. 1 was not only sup to sire, but my BiP. This guy. https://mesa.huntandjump.com/horse.php?horseid=1971584

Based on this thread, I think I'll keep this boy, then when he turns 3, do the embryo batch again, and if I get another colt, I'll compare test them to see who continues on and who becomes a pretty show horse.

I do try to breed for superior quality so I can also reduce the amount of mares that don't have as many genes as others. Before I got into breeding this project, I did my research to get mares with as many genes that herd helpers and rank specials could give, and as such, now have about 3 different generations/paper levels because of it lol.

Thank you guys, for helping explain the intricacies and being that voice of reason! ^_^

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