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In this Discussion
- Ammit February 2022
- Tarma February 2022
- TheBlueMoors February 2022
- Vorpalalice February 2022
Help? New and game-stupid
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I bought a true breeding blue roan stallion. I created a true breeding silver black. Can I get blue roans out of them?
Also, if I breed that stallion to a buckskin roan dun appaloosa, can I get pretty, blue, speckled babies? -
Not all foals from that cross will be silver blue roans. True breeding means if you breed two true-breeding horses of the same color together you will always get a foal of that color. As soon as you start crossing with other colors that goes out the window.
If you can get a blue roan out of a buckskin roan dun appaloosa depends entirely on the genetics of the mare.Need to contact me? Read this first.
I sometimes get busy and miss things. If your private message, question, etc. gets missed please ping me so I can follow up with you. I am also always happy to explain or clarify. (HAJ does not have a customer service email, please send me a forum message! )
she/her -
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Tarma, the best way to look at what possible colors you will get is to look at the homozygosity of each horse, specifically the base color which is formed by extension and agouti. Extension is represented by the initials E or e and agouti is represented by a or A. They work hand in hand to create the 3 base colors of horses: black, bay, and red. I won't get too deep in because it would take PAAAAGES to break it down fully.
To get a black horse, your horse must have one of the following genotype:
EE aa or Ee aa (agouti must always be reccessive and there must be at least 1 dominant extension)
To get a bay horse, your horse must have one of the following genotypes:
EE Aa, EE AA, EeAa, or EeAA (agouti must have at least 1 dominant copy and there must be at least 1 dominant extension)
To get a red horse, your horse must have one of the following genotypes:
eeAA, ee Aa, ee aa (extension must always be recessive- agouti status does not matter)
True breeding on this game is as Ammit said- you cross a true breeding horse to another true breeding horse of the same color and the foal will always be that color.
Your true breeding blue roan stud will have this genotype (and I am just typing the bare minimum required to have this color).
EE aa RnRn
This means your horse will always pass on 1 E, 1 a, and 1 Rn copy to his babies regardless of which allele is inherited.
Your true breeding silver black will have this genotype (again just bare minimum and does not take into account other modifiers) silver is represented by letter Z
EE aa ZZ
This horse will always pass on 1 E, 1 a, and 1 Z copy to their babies regardless of which allele.
If you breed your true breeding blue roan to your true breeding silver black, you will always get black (also called blue) roans with 1 copy of silver. This, again, does not take into account any other genes your horses are carrying- just the bare minimum.
EE aa Rn__ Z__
Your buckskin mare has this genotype:
EE AA __Cr (I am only typing out the base color plus the modifying cream which is what makes this horse buckskin rather than bay)
If you cross your blue roan stud to this mare, these are the possible outcomes
(stud) EE aa RnRn X (mare) EE AA __Cr
foals' possible genotypes:
EE aA Rn__ (bay roan)
EE aA Rn__ __Cr (buckskin roan)
Your stud will always pass on 1 E, 1 a, and 1 Rn.
Your mare will always pass on 1 E, 1 A, and 50% chance of cream.
Any resulting foals from this cross will always be bay based roans with a 50% possibility of cream.
Hopefully this makes sense and is helpful!
TheBlueMoors ID 78
~Home of~~
The Dr Seuss Project
Kings and Queens of Rome -
Thank you for the explanation. It doesn't really make sense to me yet. It'll take a while before I'm barely game-literate rather than being game-stupid. But it is helpful if I'm reading it right. Basically it says no blue speckled babies with the mares I have so far? Since every spotted horse I have is red based, I think.
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@TheBlueMoors
I have been on here a year and this is the most comprehensive explanation of this I have seen yet. Thank you very much!“But I don’t want to go among mad people,” Alice remarked.
“Oh, you can’t help that,” said the Cat: “we’re all mad here. I’m mad. You’re mad.”
“How do you know I’m mad?” said Alice.
“You must be,” said the Cat, “or you wouldn’t have come here.” -Alice’s Adventures in Wonderland, Chapter 6 -
@Vorpalalice, I am so glad this is helpful! I've been thinking about making a separate post to break down the colors to help players understand so this was a "warm up" if you will.
@Tamra, you are not game-stupid at all! Everyone starts somewhere. I remember when I first set out to learn about color genetics in horses and my head SWAM with the amount of information I had to learn!
To be clear, if you breed your true breeding blue roan stud to another black based mare you are guaranteed a blue roan foal. Red based mares, depending on their agouti status, can produce bay or black based roan foals.
I just want to clarify though what you mean by blue speckled- are you talking about a blue roan like this fella:
Testify This
or
a blue roan leopard like this
Clover
If you are crossing your true breeding blue roan stud to red mares, you should only be getting either black or bay based foals, not red because red based is recessive to black and bay. Can you provide a link to the stud/mares you are using?TheBlueMoors ID 78
~Home of~~
The Dr Seuss Project
Kings and Queens of RomeThanked by 1Vorpalalice -
This is my blue boy
FR870297
And this is the mare I was going to use because of her pattern
Redrum
And this is the other pretty girl I plan to use just for color
All Shined Up
VorpalAlice helped me out with some foals I can use in a few breeding seasons too. -
I am not well versed in appaloosa spotting genetics and their mechanisms so if anyone else wants to chime in, by all means!
If you are looking to produce blue roan leopard appaloosas consistently, your babies must have at least one copy of dominant extension (E_ or _E), TWO copies of recessive agouti (aa), at least one copy of roan (Rn_ or _Rn), at least one copy of LP (LP_ or LP_) and two copies of PATN1 (PATN1 PATN1).
Their genotype would look like this (keep in mind the allele order does not matter as long as they get one of each from either sire or dam so you can "mix and match")
E_ aa Rn_ LP_ PATN1PATN1
If you do a search using those parameters, you can see the variety of leopard patterns you can get with this combo. There is a 2nd "hidden" PATN gene on the game but I don't understand it enough to comfortably talk about it (at least I think there is a 2nd one- I could be wrong!) You can see that "hidden" gene also produces full/near leopards in horses in conjunction with only 1 PATN1 gene.
Your blue roan stud with the buckskin mare will produce any of the following (I am only typing genes pertinent to color combo you are looking for, not flaxen, dun, pangere, etc)
EE aa RnRn (stud) X EE AA -Cr -D W20/Rn -LP PATN1/PATN1
EE aA Rn_ PATN1 (bay base with roan) is guaranteed but only a part of the equation. Your mare also carries 1 copy of cream, dun, w20 and roan, and LP. Each gene has a 50% chance of getting passed on as well so you could have anything from a plain bay roan all the way up to a dunskin roan leopard (basically what your mare looks like).
Your blue roan stud with the silver black mare will produce any of the following (I am only typing genes pertinent to color combo you are looking for, not flaxen, dun, pangere, etc):
EE aa RnRn (stud) X EE aa ZZ (mare)
EE aa Rn_ Z_ is your only possible color base from this cross- silver black roans. I have put some possible ways your foal could look like from this cross
JM Georgia Tea
MS1Hrs SILVERWATCH $82207
Again, I know it can be confusing and I will be happy to break things down more if needed!TheBlueMoors ID 78
~Home of~~
The Dr Seuss Project
Kings and Queens of Rome -
Basically I get pretties from him outof both planned mares even if I can't get what I'm after with those two. Definitely still using them then.
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Tarma, that's a great way to look at it! Experiment with the horses you have and see what all you can produce and that's the beauty of this game. There is no right or wrong way to play this great game! Enjoy!TheBlueMoors ID 78
~Home of~~
The Dr Seuss Project
Kings and Queens of Rome